Okay, well you can pocket PK Thunder and PK Fire! But be careful, these energy based attacks you steal can heal Ness if he predicts your use of them! He might just be baiting you! If you really want your pocketed PK fire to activate for some reason and can't catch Ness, it'll activate when you hit your tree with it. So yknow! There's that!
Ness also actually has a reflector though - his bat, so you can bait him into using that and pocket your own non-energy based projectiles - tree, gyroid, bowling ball even on stages with platforms!
Pocket has another great use in this matchup though, when you see Ness is going to PK Thunder himself into you use Pocket's invincibility to have him go right through you and potentially fly right off the stage! (Killed with this, it was awesome)
When Ness is recovering he'll try to use his jumps as wisely as possible to avoid using PK Thunder (which you can pocket to gimp him) But thankfully he doesn't have super armor, he can attack, but it can cut his jump short, so slingshot him so he has to PK thunder. And thats when you pocket that and win.
When you're trying to recover, Ness may try to spike you or use PK thunder to pop a balloon or hit you so he can follow up with an up-air. I'd just give him a gyroid to deal with (as always) and recover low. Maybe he'll pop a balloon, but you can still make it back fine while he has PK Thunder endlag. He may just avoid all this and try to stage spike you though - so yknow, prepare to tech just in case and you will live. He could also try to PK Flash, but... we can be creative and quick with our recovery and dodge it. Just don't ride gyroid. Ya wouldnt wanna do that anyway as Ness can reflect you to your death. Riding gyroid to recover high could be fine though! You'll be in a helpless state though so...be tricky in landing.
Ness's PK Flash shouldnt be a problem overall, it has huge start-up and needs a good read. Villager doesnt have a lot of cool down overall so I'd just send a gyroid his way and keep your distance.
PK Fire can be annoying, but it doesnt activate on shield anymore (yay!) and it's got some endlag. You should be sticking in the air anyway for slingshots and turnips so jump over it and punish.
Tree can be good, axe can be good, watering can could be great for forcing him to PK Thunder, aaand you're nair can command space, especially after Ness's down-throw, he'll want to go for 2 or 3 foward airs. All your tilts are pretty great. Another good Ness approach is a falling nair. Up-Tilt this! You can go for a turnip follow up too!
Overall, I think Villager has a clear upper hand. I'd just stay in the air usually, keep some distance, really...respect his shield and grab, don't get too close. When Ness is getting a bit to close tilts are dandy, but his dash attack is good - covers lots of space -so be wary of that. You can shield grab too though! Your back-throw kills almost as good as his! Plus pocketing Ness's recovery is just...embarrassing for the poor kid. But his bat reflecting things real fast is annoying! And he is short. But...the recovery...
I'd say 60:40 in Villager's favor. At least 55:45.
Stages in Villager's favor: Battlefield, Lylat, maybe Wuhu, Halberd
Stages in Ness's favor: Smashville, T&C, FD and most omegas, DelfinoLast edited: Mar 6, 2015
I also recently fought a good Ness in an online tourney and landed two forward air slingshots from the middle of the stage into pocketing Ness' recovery. Fun stuff. Just pocketing his recovery when he has to like you did multiple times is great too!
As for pointers from watching your match:
-I'd avoid going for grabs unless their outta shield punishes or you predict he'll stay shielding a gyroid.
-Also about gyroids, you'd rather launch em slightly in the air. That way Ness can't reflect them and he can't approach you with his nice forward air.
-Also! About reflecting - you can bait them. I see you throw a gyroid and jump when Ness reflects it. You can go over and down-air.
-The stages you went to are kinda iffy for the matchup I think too. Duck Hunt can be good against some opponents, but back-throw from Ness will kill even earlier and the ducks get in the way of slingshots sometimes, while it seems PK Thunder went through just fine. I'd prefer battlefield and maybe smashville. Lylat was also a good choice.
-I might be being dumb again, but the thing that seems to have caused you most trouble is Ness' up-air. Your opponent seemed to like PK Fire and PK Thundering you into the air so he could use it more. Next time you fight him I'd try to stay grounded more, especially when he's close. Have a gyroid launched in the air to make him come to you grounded. Shouldnt be a problem with that Timber Counter sprout.
-Speaking of which, if youre ganna use that, you want it out whenever you have a moment to breath and you wanna stick around it more. Ness kinda has to come to you. He can try and hit you from afar with his PK attacks, but they have some endlag and you have pocket. He wants to get you, especially this one seemed kinda rushdowney.
I also just wanted to let y'all know in regards to the Villager vs Sheik matchup, I fought a great Sheik and it died at 35% thanks to me landing a tricky tree. Some wont rushdown as hard and will wait for it to disappear, but we were on Omega Battlefield, so not as many platforms to run to. I dunno, just thought it would be nice to share and keep in mind.
In neutral it's pretty even. Villager has good tools to keep Ness away, Ness has good tools to approach, Villager may outrange Ness, but Ness can combo and do more raw damage perhaps, but once you get Ness off-stage, if you can catch his double jump and force him to PK Thunder... pocket and that's your stock. That's why I think it's sorta evenish, but then Villager gets that big advantage. Can totally shut Ness's recovery down. Can even combo into this from the middle of the stage! (I'd know, I've done it muahaha)Last edited: Mar 17, 2015https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_E8MsJDjP8&feature=youtu.be
Good set! Saw you at Chikaigi too, good stuff! You seem to struggle with Ness though... I dunno if I should be giving you advice, I'd love to run sets with you, but I think...when Ness tries to edgeguard you with a PK Thunder, you always want to pocket that, at least at the start of the set. That can be the best thing to do sometimes, but there are times I see in this set where it would be better to airdodge and punish with a down-air or something.
Cause when you pocket, Ness get out of his semi-helpless state and goes into his helpless state and usually Villager just can't make it in time to punish that. Airdodging and punishing Ness as all he can hope to do is angle the PK Thunder back to you can be a lot more rewarding. You started doing this more later on and getting punished, so maybe I dunno what I'm talking about.
But also while watching you fight, I just can't help but wish you dropped bowling balls from platforms more, Ness is always approaching, constantly chasing you throughout the set, and at Chikaigi too - you're opponent was actually trying to trip you up by being in the air so much as the commentators pointed out, but I think if you occasionally went for some surprise bowling balls, it could really make them nervous about approaching and even catch em for an early kill.
Coming back to the stage from the ledge is also super stressful and something I think we all struggle with. Ideally, slingshot to cover yourself, but, when that doesn't work, as it sadly often didn't, no ledge invincibility can lead to your death. It might be best to choose a get up-option as quick as possible, maybe the roll or I think when watching the jump up would have been most useful more often. Ness can be a nightmare... good stuff overall though! Sorry if this isn't much help.Sonsa, Apr 25, 2015*MJG:
I agree with a lot of the points made on the ness MU but I don't believe that ness loses to villager. Both characters struggle greatly near the ledge. Ness can light villagers balloons on fire and make it difficult to come back on stage. I try to get back on stage rather than going straight to the ledge. With that being said, you can jump back on the stage and pocket the pk fire if you predict it and if you're at the right range. If lloyd is already on his way and you're recovering low, ness has 3 targets to set on fire (4 if the tree is on stage). Villager really needs to make sure that he or she stays in the middle of the stage most of the match. If you force ness to use his 2nd jump and he's still off stage (or you punished an air dodge and put him off stage), he should almost always die. Watering can is pretty useful (as most of you already know) and I almost always retrieve it once ness is off stage. Ness isn't necessarily fast but he's fast from a villager perspective. Anticipating his speed is pretty crucial since ness' punishes are nothing to scoff at. This MU becomes drastically easier once you take the first stock. Just need to make sure that your zoning is on point for all the extra credit we'll need. Also, should be pretty obvious but don't attack his shield. Free grab or nair. Grab is definitely worse due to his auto-combos out of down throw. I've played with FOW a handful of times and Shaky constantly since he is in my area now. Hopefully I get some footage from the tourney this weekend.
Ness mains like to catch landings with pk fire or they can get pretty tricky and use a double jump at the last second and throw out a pk fire.MJG, Apr 9, 2015*Cree:
- One of his biggest assets is his Fsmash. It reflects while also increasing the speed and damage output of the projectile. Try to bait out this with a Lloid and either pocket the reflection or come in with an aerial like nair or dair.
- His PK fire can combo into grabs, smashes, and aerials and is one of his better ways at racking up damage.
- Look out for the classic dthrow > fair > fair > ... This is a great way for him to push you off stage and even get a KO. Nair is your best move in this situation due to its fast starting speed and ability to push Ness away a decent amount.
- His PK thunder can be used to safely combo off stage. It can disrupt your recovery and may also be able to pop your balloons.
- Both PK fire and thunder can be pocketed, but watch out when you use them because he can PSI magnet them and there is little to no ending lag when hes recovering damage.
- You can also pocket his PK thunder to gimp his recovery but make sure you don't go for it too late or you will be hit with his PK thunder 2. You can also use the watering can to move him out of position or off the stage while PK thunder is active.
- His Bthrow is devastating when you are at higher percentages and his Fthrow can be used to get quick kills on walk off stages like the second part of Castle Siege.
- Personally, I prefer a pre-watered to the axe as a kill move, but both are great ways to secure the KO.
This MU can get pretty tough, but Ness shouldn't be able to out-zone you. I'd agree in saying it's in the 60:40 - 55:45 area in Villager's favor.Last edited: Mar 7, 2015