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Por a.vader
#167700
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Matchups de Daraen
http://smashboards.com/threads/%E2%80%9 ... ad.400205/

50/50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.​




55/45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools, or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.​




60/40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, the other character does have responses him, and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.​




65/35
One character has options that shut down the other's options. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.​




70/30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended - or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing incredibly well.​



Matchups discutidos

Daraen vs C.Falcon ImagenImagen45:55
Oculto:
Both characters have a really strong advantage time in this matchup. Falcon is an easy-to-combo weight and size, has a really hard time dealing with Arcfire/Speed Thunder/Elthunder, and is horribly vulnerable to Nair/Elwind gimps (offstage) and Uair/Grab traps (onstage) Conversely, Robin has a similarly difficult time getting down once Falcon gets her off the ground, but I don't think he has it as bad as he does. Her main weakness is lack of tools to defend herself while recovering (using Elwind).



Neutral Game


So, Falcon has a few main tools in the neutral game. His crazy range dash grab, his ridiculously quick dash speed, and his disjointed dash attack. Other than that, he really doesn't have much to play neutral with. His jump-ins all lose free to SH Fair/Uair from Robin. His general goal is to get in, land a grab/jab and convert that into a Uair juggle and eventual edge-guarding situation. At that point, he's then looking to close out the stock on the edge-guard. I find probably 80% of my deaths to Falcon are to his Bair offstage.


We have a pretty clear gameplan, though it varies by stage. Our main goal is to force him to have to jump when he's approaching us. As @Trifroze already noted, Falcon's dash start-up is actually pretty long, and his walk is awful, so we can actually react to his dash simply by throwing things at it. If customs are legal, Speed Thunder and Speed Elthunder are hell for Falcon to try to dash at, and are extremely safe. Otherwise, regular Elthunder and Arcfire fill this role pretty well. He also correctly noted that Arcfire should always be retreated in order to prevent punishment. Ideally, Robin is throwing it with platform cover above and in front of her.


The horizontal spacing game is designed to either rack up damage a little bit at a time, or convert into positioning/edge-guard by landing Arcfire. Falcon's model is wide and his shield size means if he tries to shield Arcfire, he is frequently stuck in the middle of the hitbox due to how far he slides during his dash. He really has to respect it, since it's not something he can just powershield and ignore.


Once he gets into boxing range, SH Fair and Jab are our go-tos. The Wind jab buff helped this matchup a TON, as Falcon has an extremely hard time getting out of it due to his fall speed. Otherwise, main boxing tools are D-tilt, F-tilt and retreating pivot grab.


Once Falcon's in the air, we can just abuse our disjoint. Falcon's Nair is insufficient for combating anything below and in front of him, so Fair just absolutely ruins his day. Once he's above us, he really has no answer to the Uair if we're spacing properly. His Dair lacks sufficient disjoint to beat out Uair, and you can trap his airdodge and grab him if he tries to airdodge past us into the ground.


I did some rudimentary testing of Ledge Eject setups vs. Falcon with @DaBeast just now. We don't have anything guaranteed, but if Falcon jumps he can get caught by Trump -> Sour Uair into Elwind or Trump -> Bair. It's a mixup at best however. I would stick mainly to Nair gimps, Fair, and Elwind spikes (or stagespikes) and/or harassment for the most part.


Once Falcon gets US off the ground there's not a whooooole lot we can do about the Wheel of Fortune (Uair chains). As was said, just take the damage and try not to eat Knee/Dair from air-dodging. At higher percents when they're not longer guaranteed, we can Elwind on reaction and land safely. I'm preeeeety sure we can't do much to avoid his Trump -> Bair, but I have not tested it extensively. 


Other things worth mentioning: Falcon hates having platforms in his way in the neutral game, so I would try to stick to stages that don't just let him run around freely. (Avoid FD)


Nosferatu is also fantastic against Falcon when he's been forced onto a platform. His out-of-shield game is pretty bad, so he's pretty free to the (Robin jumps up from below you: Is it Nos or Uair?) mixup. 


I might add more later, but I think that covers most things worth talking about. I think it's a pretty close matchup. Both characters have really exploitable traits, so it really comes down to which player is winning the neutral game more frequently. I think both characters have solid tools to do so. I do think it is likely a slight disadvantage without access to Speed Thunder, however.


The general consensus seems to be that Falcon beats Robin. And while I can agree with that to an extent, I don't think think it's that bad Robin. True, Falcon can be an explosive fireball that can hit us both hard and fast, taking advantage of Robin's key weakness to pressure. But I feel Robin has the tools to beat Falcon.


Falcon has two main weaknesses (though admittedly the second one may be more debatable) that Falcon has that Robin can exploit. The obvious weakness being his poor recovery. We gimp him, for free. While Falcon can get a spike on us, that requires either a read on his part or just a mistake on ours. In other words, we gimp him easier than he can gimp us.


Falcon's approach, while not necessarily bad, is fairly linear especially when compared to the more dynamic approaches characters like Diddy and Sheik can do. Robin preys on characters with linear approach options, whether it be with a well placed arcfire, elthunder, arcthunder, or a spaced out nair or levin fair.


What to do:
Go for the gimps and early kills
Use jab, arcfire, and elthunder/arcthunder to keep him at bay.
take advantage of our superior range, especially in the air.
Bring speed thunder. Even thunder, in speed thunder form, can be a great way to disrupt Falcon's momentum when he's approaching.
Use wind jab to kill, which theoretically should be a great option since Falcon is tall and is a fast faller, meaning he will have a harder time di-ing out it compared to most characters.
If you know how to b-reverse, use it as a way to mix up landings.


What NOT to do:
Stay in your shield too long. Falcon has a great grab game and that's what he want us to do
Throw arcfire mindlessly. Although it's a great tool against Falcon, he can still easily punish us for a poorly spaced arcfire
Go to final destination
Charge thunder for too long. Another reason why I recommend speed thunder.


What to watch out:
Jabs. Honestly still don't know how to deal with this well.
Airdodge baits. Yes, every character can do this, but it feels particularly painful when Falcon baits your airdodge into the knee of justice.


You should never use Arcfire without either approaching or retreating through the air in this matchup since Falcon has enough time to jump over the fire, uair Robin before landing and combo it into knee resulting in a kill initially between 50 and 90%. Later he can just use the knee alone. Robin can't really rely on punishing any attacks Falcon throws out since neither one of them should be using extremely punishable ones. Robin has to systematically try to pressure Falcon with projectiles as much as possible while keeping him out with aerials, and punish his shield and dash-ins. It takes almost a second for Falcon to get his shield up after he starts a dash because of how long his initial dash is, so mostly save your thunders for this. If he walks he needs to shield so much fire and thunder that it'll poke him eventually, and if he jumps you can try to read it. Arcfire works well on Falcon and often gives you a follow-up because of Falcon's large size, weight and fall speed, but as said you should be careful about using it.


When he gets in mid range though and he's still good at it, there isn't much Robin can do. The key is mostly to prevent this situation from happening as much as possible. However Robin's rapid jab variation works well on Falcon and has decent use in this matchup for boxing situations on the ground. IIRC it's only 1 frame slower than Falcon's jab and has considerably more range, but ideally Falcon will space himself properly and won't be putting himself in situations where you can take advantage of this, although it's still an option that prevents Falcon from just rushing Robin down for free. Falcon's own jab will harass Robin by not giving you any space and constantly sending you in the air or offstage at a bad angle. Uairs juggle Robin very well and keep you in the air for a long time, however you should never airdodge in the middle of these uair strings. Falcon will read it and punish with either a knee or a dair depending on whether you're onstage or offstage. As unintuitive as it seems, whenever you're in a situation where you can't jump away from Falcon's uair string and he's fastfalling them, you should just accept it and take the damage rather than airdodge. Save the latter for situations where it cannot be punished such as landing from high up while having full aerial mobility and the ability to b reverse etc. Falcon's whole advantage revolves around conditioning bad airdodges.


Both characters have similarly edgeguardable recoveries because they lack hitboxes. Robin should mostly use up b and nair to try to gimp Falcon and mix your own recovery up as much as you can since Falcon can punish both high and low recoveries with his bair and dair. I'd say the characters are similar in terms of killing ability at higher percents (100+). Robin's aerials hit harder and have more range but Falcon chases Robin down better. They both also have similarly effective back throws near the ledge. Falcon does have the ability to kill at 60-80% without meteors or without being offstage / at the edge of the stage though. Probably not a big disadvantage for Robin, but I'd definitely drop this a -1 or 40:60 from Robin's perspective.



Daraen vs Estela&Destello ImagenImagen 45:55
Oculto:
I just recently played a tournament where I had to fight 3 Rosalumas (Lol) and I player better every game. You have to know the Mu to perform well


Like most of you said, GP shits in Robin, since she can't really punish it cause of her slow dash Speed. Also the physicall items become not that usefull cause of GP and luma. Advantage Rosalina


Next on is Lumas body block. Its quite annoying to have Luma block arcthunder and arcfire. But then again he helps in the air, because he delays the hitbox of Robins aerials when you hit him. It really comes in handy cause its the perfect timing for punishing rosas airdodge. I dont really had the feeling that Robin can geht rid of Luma easier then others, but I'm gonna trust you there.
Robin does not really rely on Grabs so thats another point where Luma does not help. Since Luma is just a powerfull tool in General but Robin can handle that quite well and even get some advantages for herself; Even


Robins recovery is not that great. But that counts for any Match up. I dont see rosalina having an easier or harder time gimping Robin. And as long as Robin has her Levin sword, she can trade with rosas big hitboxes. Both are not really mobile off stage and feel much more comfortable on the stage. Both dislike being off stage; Even


Last thing I want to mention before I go is juggle game and kill posibility.
Since rosalina is sooo light, its not unusuall for Robin to get a kill at about 90%. So rosa cant really get into rage, where I felt like she cant kill good without rage. Levin Sword advantage


And yea both are not the Best jugglers. Maybe connecting like 2 aerials if you are lucky. Robins Levin sword uair beats rosas down air and rosas uair beats Robin down air as well. Both can punish airdodges pretty decent. Rosa has little advantage when it comes to punish landings cause of her dash attack and general more movespeed slight slight advantage for Rosalina, almost even


So yea, combining all these red notes you'd get a MU slightly in favour of Rosalina. Like 60:40 if the Rosalina has good reflexes (damn you GP) or 55:45.



 Although Robin's magic is very potent against luma often knocking him into tumble as long as you stay away from the ledge it should not kill. Thoron is the most useful since you can't react to it, although if you are far enough away you can spam gravitational pull and robin's slow run speed means she can not punish. I believe that nosforatu hurts luma if he is close enough so he can't save you. Robin also has the problem of not being able to combo you or juggle you due to you being light enough to escape her rapid jab and Elfire. Robins sword can cause problems but if (s)he is not careful can run out and then you can have an easy time with them due to your way bigger range.
When Luma dies Rosalina can run away and stall more effectively since robin is slow and you can gravitational pull. Robin's off stage game is worse then Rosalina due to rose recovery but that doesn't mean you can't have to be careful as robin does have a powerful sword that can launch you if you are predictable with how you recover, but you can land on the stage safer against her then most characters (watch out for thoron.)
Robin's grab is short so you should be safe in your shield and they do not get much from their grab when they do get it. When you get a grab tho the juggle is real due to low mobility and a good weight and fall speed you should get quite a few up airs



Robin has an easier easier time dealing with Luma when compared to the rest of the cast thanks to arcthunder, thoron, and the levin sword. Depending on the position of the characters, a simple sh levin fair can even do trick. Heck, sometimes dash attack also gets the job done if Rosalina and Luma are seperate. Admittedly, it can be annoying when Luma starts acting like a bodyguard for Rosalina but than be used to our advantage. For example, if Luma is near Rosalina and gets hits by arcthunder, than Rosalina may also be forced to block the arcthunder as well and potentially take a mix-up. 


While Rosalina can score an early ko offstage, I would argue Robin is better at koing onstage. Levin uair, a discarded tome (great for baiting gravitational pull when used in sync with another projectile), and a good dsmash punish will tear right through her, potentially scoring a relatively early ko by this game's standard. I, for one, have ko'ed numerous Rosalinas at around 80% with Levin uair. 


Daraen vs Fox ImagenImagen 45:55
Oculto:
Robin isn't too difficult. We can shine two of his powerful specials (albeit I wouldn't recommend shining arcfire - free grab right there since arcfire would bounce at a stupid angle) And once again, we can overwhelm him. One thing I'd say that he does have on us is a free arcfire to uair, which kills us early. Nair can also catch us easily out of illusion or fire fox. However, we heavily outspeed him. He also doesn't have many good landing options. Get out of the way if he Up B's when you're tryna juggle him - run in for that free punish. Don't hide in shield too much, because Nosferatu can get us out of it and cancel out your work. Overall the main things to do in the matchup is to just not give Robin space to zone. Play in his face.

You have to remember that Robin can shoot arcfire at the ground next to your shield/deflector and that as the burning ends it gives one last hurrah hit that does a pretty good amount of knockback. If he sets an arcfire next to you, it's best to move away and get some free shots in with your blaster. 




Robin also suffers if you deflect his up+b when he's trying to mess with your juggling game.




Don't worry about trying to deflect a fully charged Thoron, it won't work. He'll just get you in arcfire and shoot it when you're committed to something else or in the process of an animation (roll dodge maybe). A lot of Foxes try really hard to deflect that and end up taking tons of damage from other attacks.

Make sure to hit him with your laser whenever he's charging his thunder if possible, you'll rack up the damage quickly.


Fox vs Robin I think is 6-4 or worse. Robin being so slow makes it difficult to get consistent juggling on Fox since he can side b away and has a fast falling speed. Robin also can get double jabbed at any percent and can get juggled extremely hard. Robin's biggest strength is this match up is the ability to kill very early with the Levin sword.


Despite having a reflector, Fox actually has a hard time dealing with robin's projectiles. Reflecting arcfire pretty much does nothing for you. Robin hits hard; you can die early quite easily vs the Levin sword moves. Fox has 0 safe options to get back on stage if Robin Arcfires the edge, especially if its a stage without platforms. You do any sort of getup arcfire will hit you. If you roll, a smart robin will be waiting in punish range behind the arcfire to react and punish. Arcfire will hit you while you are on the ledge if you wait too long as well. Jump off to avoid it? Better not regrab because you will have no invincibility. You may be able to jump up and shine, but if robin's as close as he should be you are getting fsmashed, nosferatud, upaired, or something of the sort. Pretty much the only way out besides getting back on stage if an arcfire is out is to go for platforms or go high, and good Robins will be waiting with Levin sword/arcthunder/thoron in hand knowing you have to do that. Your best bet honestly is to try to get on stage before arcfire even gets out, and NEVER play vs robin on a stage without platforms you can use to get back (Battlefield and smashville are 2 great options).

Robin is one of the characters double jab fully locks, and Robin's recovery is easy for Fox to edgeguard. Nairs and ledge trumps do wonders vs Robin. If he goes high, free upair. You can also shine his elwind if he goes for an elwind spike and spike him instead (you need to be fast and predict it for it to work honestly). I got a Jv3 on a robin once, and took a stock that way




Daraen vs Greninja ImagenImagen 40:60
Oculto:
Overall, if I were to break down this MU...

Greninja wins the neutral even if it's not by much thanks to shurikens having great range and being able to create a lot of pressure. Robin generally wants to get close to Greninja and abuse his normals and the power of the Levin Sword and also his jab, but Greninja is also very good at punishing Robin for whatever mistakes he makes especially thanks to a lot of his moves being pretty lag or unsafe, meaning even if he's scary upclose he can't afford to mess up much.

When it comes to advantaged state, they're both pretty close I think. Robin has more immediate power and crazy reward out of Arc Thunder/Fire, but Greninja also has very damaging combos and thanks to his mobility he's able to chase Robin around very well once he hits advantage and so is able to stay at this state for longer than Robin usually can.

Robin gets juggled pretty badly I think, not much in the way to help him get down safely. Greninja has a better disadvantage thanks to Hydro Pump allowing him to mix up his landings while Robin himself will be too slow to catch up to him unless he has a Thoron charged up.

I don't think there's much of a question that Greninja wins the edgeguarding game. Robin's recovery is very linear while Greninja's is anything but. The best Robin can do is set up Arcfires at the ledge to make it harder for Greninja to get back on stage from there, but that's about it.

All of that seems to imply an advantageous MU for Greninja in my eyes.



Daraen vs Lucina ImagenImagen 55:45
Oculto:
I will be posting from the Robin's side, Locuan will post from Lucina's.




Robin and Projectiles




Robins need to abuse every chance they have to landing trap Lucina using Elthunder or Thoron, considering Lucina does not have any options that are safe(countering gives Robin stage control vs. Elthunder, Thoron just plain grills through her but does less damage if countered) other than a double-jump mindgame or Up B. Patience is key here as Lucina may attempt to make an approach from the air(which is still unsafe since Levin UAir is a threat and outranges Lucina's DAir), but her only options to get down are Counter or Dodging, just like Shulk.




Arcfire needs to be used as a spacing tool as always, but on places like FD he needs to be careful where he throws it out and when, since Lucina's fast enough(and can duck low enough) to get under Arcfire before it gets in her path. Retreating Arcfire is a good solution in some situations.




Advantage Time




Aight. So this is where things get good. Advantage Time happens whenever your opponent is in a bad position. The best position for Robin to be in is right below her butt, allowing Levin UAir attacks and mix-ups. It even extends to whenever Lucina has used her Double Jump, leaving her to a vulnerable Up B to avoid eating Thoron, granting Robin some stage control.




Levin Sword




The Levin(Leffin) Sword is one of Robin's most powerful weapons. However, Robin and Lucina are about even when it comes to FAirs, as they both have the same reach. Only difference is Lucina has the frame advantage horizontally with about half the frames Robin has to bring out a FAir.




-Robin's FAir: 12 Frames
-Lucina's FAir: 6 Frames




Just one thing: DON'T USE DAIR AT ALL. It's a bad move anyway for Robin as its horizontal hitbox isn't really good and leaves Robin with landing lag.




The Power of Knowledge




This is something that is very useful for Robin. The books he drops can be obtained as items mainly by doing a Z-Catch, and by obtaining it Robin poses a heavy threat to Lucina. The book/sword deals a good amount of shield damage, and also can be re-obtained should Lucina shield it. Lucina's Counters have no effect here except to give Robin stage control, as the book bounces just outside of Counter's range to be thrown again. It can be used for Shield Breaks, which leaves them open to a free Charged Smash. It's probably a good idea to throw that book up high so that you can get a good chance of getting it back though to gimp Lucina. You'll see why in a second.




Edgeguarding




Things are quite tricky when it comes to Robin edgeguarding against Lucina. For one, Lucina can use FAir to get back, and that doesn't do Robin any good considering he has frame disadvantage. Even then, it's very scary to attempt an Elwind Spike on Lucina as Dolphin Slash causes more knockback the closer you are. This can lead to unneeded stage spikes and make Robin unable to recover. The safest things you can use are Arcfire and Elwind. Regarding Elwind, you can't just FF onto her and expect a spike. If you can, attempt to stage spike her when she's low. You can do this by facing away from the stage and having the second Elwind shot hit Lucina.




Disadvantage Time




Bad news. You're above Lucina, or Lucina got past Arcfire somehow. How to shake her off? Well, for one NAir is a good option as something to give Robin space. You can attempt a cross-up using NAir as well to put him on the other side and give him a bit of stage to work with if Lucina is near you. Another option is to roll past, but that can lead to repercussions provided they're not blind to how to punish a roll.




If you're above Lucina, DO NOT DAIR. Robin will not hit with it, since it's only directly below him(and it's more than likely Lucina will attempt UAir). If Lucina is getting on your nerves, attempt Elwind if you want and try to move away some to mix up your landing. FFing after Elwind is a must, as Lucina has a good fall speed that's about the same as Marth's.




Nosferatu




This is Robin's healing move, and recovers depending on if Robin is losing on the current stock(in the case of opponent on fresh stock). If you have 100% Damage and your opponent got a fresh stock, try to mix in a Nosferatu. You'll get a good amount of health back(1/3rd) and do a good life swing unless they mash really fast.




Conclusion




My thoughts on this? Robin has a slight advantage against Lucina, just like he does Marth. He zones out Lucina to a good extent, and can trap their landings easily if they don't Dolphin Slash or have already used their Double-Jump. Books are the major threat due to how it can Shield Break and cause 15-19% damage on hit plus good knockback.

The best I can find it as is 55-45, Robin Favor.





A well played Robin has the means to keep Lucina away until their tomes burn out. And careless close combat can result in getting smacked by a Levin Sword. Robin is vulnerable to an extent while charging tomes, but you won't be doing anything besides initiating mindgames up close and slowing the charge a little bit.
It's optimal to hit Robin in those few precious seconds when they are vulnerable; such as a whiffed Arcfire. Baiting spells(i.e faking landing into a Thoron only to jump again if possible) is also viable, but smart players will try to outplay you on that.

Lucina runs faster than Robin, for what it's worth, so that's a small plus for her. Feel free to argue.


Arcfire effectively shuts down the rush down ground game and pressures Lucina at mid range. Thoron can punsish careless moves at any range, and is effective for edge guarding or killing. A good Robin player will not be so focused on charging the thunder tome, so you can forget about any openings there. Lucina also doesn't have many approach options on Robin due to her shorter range and lack of projectiles. A good strategy is if you see Robin trying to shieldgrab your aerial approaches, use a shorthop shieldbreaker to force Robin to evade the attack.

Last thoughts: Robin will try and keep Lucina at bay with spells while using arcfire and arcthunder to lead into high damage combos. I think Robin has a slightly superior aerial game, so Lucina must use the counter to safely contest in the aerial game


Now as for theory, Robin's Thoron and Arcthunder defeat Lucina's counters, so you cannot counter them. Shulk's pretty much the only guy who can(Forward Vision), but aside from that Lucina needs to understand her way of approach.




As far as the Levin Sword and Bronze Sword goes, both Lucina and Robin are on even ground in the air. The only difference: Lucina has a better DAir, allowing her to spike Robins that recover low with Elwind. Bronze Sword NAirs can gimp Lucina offstage, so she needs to dodge those(countering them does squat since you'll be too low to recover after the animation unless you're pretty high up and not too far from the ledge).

Arcfire is Robin's means of keeping Lucina out, just like Marth. Considering the run speed, Lucina can get under Arcfire about 1.5-2 seconds into the cast since she dips low like Marth does. At that point Lucina is in Robin's no-no zone.

Nosferatu is still a recovery tool as always.

Elthunder is an attempt at a landing trap that Lucina can counter, but the downside is Robin could gain some stage control, so decisions decisions. Thunder is just a straight-up poke.

As for the durability mechanic: BEWARE OF BOOKS. Lucina can counter, but even then Robin's gonna be chucking knowledge at Lucina when he thinks there's an opening. Countering does discourage going in for the book again, aside from shielding. If you shield a book, Robin can get it again just through Z-Catching and he can use it again.


Now as for theory, Robin's Thoron and Arcthunder defeat Lucina's counters, so you cannot counter them. Shulk's pretty much the only guy who can(Forward Vision), but aside from that Lucina needs to understand her way of approach.

As far as the Levin Sword and Bronze Sword goes, both Lucina and Robin are on even ground in the air. The only difference: Lucina has a better DAir, allowing her to spike Robins that recover low with Elwind. Bronze Sword NAirs can gimp Lucina offstage, so she needs to dodge those(countering them does squat since you'll be too low to recover after the animation unless you're pretty high up and not too far from the ledge).

Arcfire is Robin's means of keeping Lucina out, just like Marth. Considering the run speed, Lucina can get under Arcfire about 1.5-2 seconds into the cast since she dips low like Marth does. At that point Lucina is in Robin's no-no zone.


Nosferatu is still a recovery tool as always.


Elthunder is an attempt at a landing trap that Lucina can counter, but the downside is Robin could gain some stage control, so decisions decisions. Thunder is just a straight-up poke.

As for the durability mechanic: BEWARE OF BOOKS. Lucina can counter, but even then Robin's gonna be chucking knowledge at Lucina when he thinks there's an opening. Countering does discourage going in for the book again, aside from shielding. If you shield a book, Robin can get it again just through Z-Catching and he can use it again.


Daraen vs Rey Dedede  ImagenImagen 65:35
Oculto:
Arcfire completely defines this matchup. Because Dedede's mobility is so bad, Arcfire is literally an all-purpose 'No.' button. You can throw it out in virtually ANY situation and it will be the correct decision, or at least tactically passable. Dedede simply cannot approach through it on the ground (he's too wide) and if he tries to jump over it, he's completely free to Robin jumping up and swinging a Fair (followed by Falling Nair) at him.

Boxing in close to mid-range with Dedede is pretty simple. If you're far enough away, you Arcfire. If you're close, you jab. Dedede is pretty free to either variant of jab, though he sometimes pops out of Wind Jab due to his floatiness, should you be using it at as an anti-air.

Air-to-air Dedede simply cannot compete with Fair/Uair. They have way too much disjoint for him to deal with due to his slow start-up and poor arc on Fair, and abysmal hitbox size on Nair. His Bair is passable, but quite slow and telegraphed, making it unreliable in general.

About the only time Dedede actually doesn't feel like his life is complete suffering is if he has Robin off-stage. Due to her lack of defense-oriented hitboxes on Elwind, she's actually pretty easy to edge-guard IF you can steal her double-jump. If she can hold that, she's fine and able to swat D3 away pretty easily with Fair or Uair. Unfortunately for Dedede, this aspect of the MU got even worse with patch 1.1, as Robin received significantly buffed control over her Elwind recovery in terms of her horizontal movement and ability to weave with it.

If Robin gets D3 offstage, you basically just lost the stock. Put down your controller, she's going to put Arcfire on the ledge and it will cover literally every option Dedede has. Her Levin sword aerials also mean D3's normally high survivability is significantly weakened, especially with the 1.1 damage buff to Fair. D3 is also vulnerable to ledge-trump Bair from Robin.

1.1 also brought a significantly faster Elthunder for dealing with D3 in neutral (which she already did just fine), and buffed the crap out of her reward off grab. I have to test exact percents, but the Checkmate (D-throw Uair) definitely works on Dedede, opening up a consistent kill off grab at around 100-110%.

This is all to say nothing of his susceptibility to Arcthunder combos, his incredibly large frame making him a gigantic Nosferatu target, and his inability to combat her in the long-range camp war that sometimes lets Dedede force his opponent to approach. He has basically nothing going for him in this match-up. Robin can play super straightforward and borderline brainless and he will struggle to cope with even the most basic of gameplans. (If Robin executes correctly)

My advice is that if you're fighting a competent Robin you should probably just pick a different character. I consider this MU a strong +2, borderline +3, and he's easily our best match-up other than possibly Ganondorf (w/o customs, Dropkick helps him a bit).

Like..... even completely ignoring Arcfire, Robin racks damage faster, kills earlier, and has a significantly easier time returning to neutral than Dedede does.

Gordo plows through Arcfire, until the last launching hit. If the Gordo is inside the fire for the last few frames, it'll reflect. But it means you can actually sit just outside Arcfire range and throw Gordos. It leaves you far enough away to still shield/reflect Gordos in time, and pressure.

If you just sit there and throw Gordos, any variant of Thunder will reflect those from a safe distance.


Daraen vs Sheik ImagenImagen 35:65
Oculto:
Diversas opiniones de la discusión
From what we should already know from what was discussed in the previous MU Thread, Sheik is going to give Robin a difficult time charging Thoron with the spammable projectile needles. They go a long ways, so it can be an anti-camp strategy to close the gap slowly and prevent Robin from gaining a Thoron Charge. Sheik's combos such as FThrow->Bouncing Fish/FAir can possibly gimp Robin as well, since Robin's recovery is horizontally challenged. RAR BAir after performing a FF FAir chain can prove deadly for Robin at high percents. Sheiks should know not to use DAir unless they're confident as it has a bunch of endlag that can be punished in any way possible by Robin. Grenade may possibly be a way to lock out Robin at the edge using the ATs listed in the thread that was linked in the OP since offstage, Robin has to go for the ledge or risk getting hit by a USmash or FSmash(unless Sheik rushes in to try and gimp him with FAir).




Robin, on the other hand, can attempt to stop Sheik's approach with Elthunder on the ground, since it takes half a second to charge it to that. Arcfire should be used very sparingly here as it has a lot of endlag on it. If possible, bring Fire Wall if using customs to wall her out from a grab. For the most part, Robin can't gimp Sheik due to Vanish being a teleport to the ledge. If any, chasing a Vanish would make Robin in a disadvantaged state. Robin may have a few problems with dealing with Sheik's momentum as pretty much all of her moves can be Fast Falled without lag except for SH UAir and Specials, so tilts may help here in dealing with that. If you manage to charge to Thoron, Sheik is going to have a lot of trouble getting through it, unless she uses Vanish to reach the ground...though I don't know how much endlag is on it and if invulnerability is still an issue. All of Robin's aerials can challenge Sheik's due to the disjoint and reach. Items can also trap Sheik on landing, and can be used to pressure shield. Levin DSmash on the other hand may be troublesome to hit with since Sheik can roll fast, so unless you catch her rolling in front of where you're smashing it like Marth, the electricity behind you may not hit her.




...This is pretty much what I know from a bit of knowledge of the MU. Take it with a grain of salt if it's proved wrong, since I haven't played any real Sheik players from the boards.







We already know that this MU is horrible for us, Sheik can edgeguard us really easily and coming back to the stage is going to be a pain. Sheik's speed and amazing frame data is going to make really hard to charge Thunder or throw Arcfires, also the needles are perfect for stoping us from charging thunder. Her Fair is going to rack damage us really easily and she can edgeguard us with that and her Bair (is nerfed so is not as terrible as before but still watch out).
Another problem is that is almost imposible to gimp Sheiks because Vanish invincibility and also that the explosion can kill us so our Nair or bronze swords gimps are almost useless offstage, you better use that time charging Thoron.




So Sheik is a really annoying character that can combo us for days but one good advantage we have is that we shine we're she really have trouble: Kill power. Our Levin aerials are amazing, we have good reach, powerful and disjointed hitbox in all our Levin aerials so figthing in the air while we have the Levin sword should be more useful that staying in the ground throwing projectiles. Still I think that we still can use our projectiles but we can't spam Arcfire and you need to use really efficiently and in this MU I prefer to use Elthunders because they have long reach, do more damage and you can charge it relatively fast. 




Other thing is that our Jab is really useful here, is quick and now the Wind and Fire Jab are godlike, the two can kill and Wind jab now racks damage a lot better, also our jab can stop some Sheik approaches.




For customs I think that Speed thunder really give us a tool to fight and control a lot better Sheik approachs, thunder becomes a really annoying and fast projectile and you can spam Elthunders and even Arcthunders, maybe the occasional Thoron that is going to be more present if you are using Speed instead of default thunder.




That are my two cents to the MU but it would be nice is more Robins come to discuss MUs, we need to step our game!








I apologize in advance if I am repeating some of the things people already said but perhaps that can still be considered a good thing since it means we're identifying the same issues and potential solutions.




I agree that Speed Thunder is a must for us if we want to even remotely come close to zoning Sheik successfully and consistently. If you're using default though, then we should probably stick to Elthunder more since Sheik makes it difficult for us to charge.




What is most important is probably to keep calm and carry on. She will rack on the damage on us quickly even if we're on top of our game. That's just what she does as a character. Our saving grace is our generally superior KO options so let's use rage to our advantage. 




Learning to jab well against her is also crucial. It's our main close range tool against her and can even be used as anti-air sometimes for Sheiks who sh a lot. The patch changes helps us even further since wind jab is now a legitimate threat against Sheik, especially when we consider that jab is also an antiair. 




As someone stated already, gimping Sheik is difficult but if she is recovering from below the stage I believe we should still go for the elwind spike, especially since vanish doesn't have that much vertical recovery. 




Key thing to not do against Sheik is to use Arcfire recklessly since both her speed and her needles make it easy for her to punish us.




Daraen vs Shulk ImagenImagen 55:45


Daraen vs WFT ImagenImagen 40:60
Oculto:
Neutral Game
WiiFit will not need to approach most of the time due to faster projectiles. Robin may have trouble approach due to SS covering ground approaches and Header for covering aerial approaches. Due to Robin's approaches not being safe on shield, WiiFit can most likely shield all the approaches. WiiFit can mostly punish most moves with her jab or dash attack. WiiFit's most successful OOS options are bair, jab, and ftilt. Robin can space due to better range but WiiFit has superior frame data and has more mobility (LOL who doesn't). WiiFit can crouch under all forms of thunders, Fire is reactable. Robin is known for landing lag too, WiiFit can easily punish with a nair combo. Nair-Nair-Nair-Header does 70+ damage and is inescapable. If Fire catches her, she can and will get comboed and have a trouble landing due to nair not having a big hitbox under her. WiiFit will not shield a lot so notferasu will not be a big part of this MU. Wii Fit can also bait robin with empty hops but robin can to, but not as well due to WiiFit having a better jump. Basically, in neutral, WiiFit has more options




KOs
While they both have kill power, they both have struggle landing a kill outside of OOS Bairs. If WiiFit is near the ledge, Robin can get a Bthrow off. Same with WiiFit and uair. Robin's and WiiFit's smashes are hard read moves. Robin does have a kill set-up which is ArcFire to Uair. ArcFire can be SDIed out of especially since WiiFit is floaty. WiiFit has nair to usmash but it is a bit hard to pull off. At higher percents like 130%, WiiFit has SS, Ftilt, and Uthrow. Robin has Fair, ArcThunder, and Dash Attack.


Edgeguarding
WiiFit can be gimped but it can be a risk. WiiFit can stage spike Robin with the hoops if he tried to spike her. WiiFit has three spikes and can shoot a SS offstage to gimp. Shooting headers can also work and sometimes snipe them offstage.


Stages
I feel like Wii Fit would benefit from stages with Platforms much more. I would ban BF/DL/MV and T&C against WiiFit. Robin probably won't like CS due to the statues stopping ArcFire and the Thunders excluding thoron. WiiFit can definitely shark on Delfino and net early kills and camp all match.


Score: 60:40


Matchups no Discutidos

El resto (?)



Inspirado por el tema de Mr.C, sentíos libres de discutir los matchups como usuarios de Daraen o como contendientes contra Daraen en este tema  :ugeek:

Y como la discusión oficial va muy lenta puede que pase algún rato metiendo ratios basados en mi experiencia y conocimiento que servirán como base para discutir más que como algo a tomar en cuenta.  :geek:
Última edición por a.vader el Mar Oct 06, 2015 8:56 pm, editado 11 veces en total.
Avatar de Usuario
Por 3toryu
SBSVip
#167709
Como actual usuario de Daraen(a) sería algo mejor hacer como en Smashboards y discutir durante una semana sobre x personaje/s. Empezando por los high tier  :ugeek:
Avatar de Usuario
Por a.vader
#167710
Si ellos van lentos con una docena de Daraen mainer imagina aquí que decir que somos 4 gatos es tirar por lo alto (?)

Pero bueno, vamos a ello,  propongo empezar con Yoshi, ya que es uno de los personajes top con más uso en España  respecto de América :geek:
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Por a.vader
#169476
No discusión tal como predije, I'm always three steps ahead (?)

Copiando a Greward y porque me aburro hago la MU chart imo:


+2 [65:35 - 60:40]: ImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagen

+1 [60:40 - 55:45]:ImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagen

0 (55:45 - 45:55): ImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagen

-1 [45: 55 - 40:60]:ImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagen

-2 [40:60 - 35:65]:ImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagenImagen

-3 [35:65 - 30-70]:Imagen

ültimo edit: 24-01-16

Los Miis se estiman con posibilidad de usar cualquier moveset.
Última edición por a.vader el Dom Ene 24, 2016 4:20 pm, editado 14 veces en total.
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Por a.vader
#169480
Es uno de los Mu puestos en el primer post. No es tan malo realmente. Pero sí es más difícil para Daraen trabajar el Mu que para Estela, por eso a bajo nivel o si no sabes el Mu parece una ventaja mayor para Estela de lo que es.
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Por Marcbri
Administrador
#169935
wtf como tiene robin ventaja contra G&W? Porque Falco es even si no puedes hacerle nada? Ness, Rosalina y Fox son -3, invalidan totalmente el personaje.
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Por Veyron
#169953
Marcbri escribió:wtf como tiene robin ventaja contra G&W? Porque Falco es even si no puedes hacerle nada? Ness, Rosalina y Fox son -3, invalidan totalmente el personaje.


Lo que más me sorprende es que no hayas dicho nada de donde esta DK xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Avatar de Usuario
Por Marcbri
Administrador
#169977
Que DK sea un personaje bueno no significa que no pueda perder contra Robin, los match-ups no se basan en la tier list ni nada parecido si no en las tools de un personaje contra otro. +2 igual es un poco fuerte pero en teoria a DK le debería costar Robin y el +1 es muy viable.
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Por a.vader
#169984
Además de teoría y mi experiencia he basado el +2 contra DK  en 3 horas comentadas continuas de Will vs Raziek, mejores DK y Robin respectivamente.
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Por willyyy
SBSVip
#170664
Hoy he jugado toda la mañana contra el daraen de nail (que es bastante bueno) y mi conclusion es:

Mario vs robin: ligera ventaja mario
Toon link vs robin: ventaja clara para toon link
Yoshi vs robin: ventaja clara yoshi
Gaw vs robin: even o ligera ventaja robin
Rob vs robin: even
Diddy vs robin: ligera ventaja robin (os lo juro, este matchup es horrible)
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Por Musty_666
#170670
willyyy escribió:Diddy vs robin: ligera ventaja robin (os lo juro, este matchup es horrible)


LOL Willy. Yo he jugado contra el Robin de Herrete y suelo jugar Robin for fun y para nada es un mal matchup para diddy si sabes jugarlo, pero PARA NADA. Robin tiene dos opciones para mantenerte lejos y las sobreusa, si sabes pararselas, RIP Robin.
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Por Vostok
#170677
Llevo varios días toqueteando el personaje y lo voy a usar más a menudo, así que postearé aquí cuando esté seguro de algún matchup.

Stay freeshhhh
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Por a.vader
#172088
Una app para hacer Mu charts  :geek: http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/

Esta es la mía de Daraen con mi opinión a día de hoy:
Oculto:
Imagen
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Por Nail
#172090
Yo no se contra que Mr.G&W habrás jugado tu pero, diría que tiene ventaja el xD

Por cierto, ahora que maineo a Daraen y estoy empezando a tener experiencia con los MUs, Creo que voy a hacerme una guia tipo la de Dath en docs xD y si creo que lo merece, la compartiré. :P

Confirmo 77,77% :4Mario:

Movistar me echó de Winners y Losers. Mali.

Me va a tocar ir, me voy a apuntar hasta a Melee

[HUELVA] - THUNDER!

Confirmo