- Mar Abr 02, 2013 9:05 pm
#131661
Pues bien, en la BBR estamos trabajando en Tier List 8.0 y quería comentar un poco vuestra opinión. Para empezar la discusión pondré mi voto. Quiero decir que el voto lo llevo editando varios días y que todavía no es definitivo. Además os copio los argumentos que he puesto pero por ahora no los voy a traducir.
Top tier:
SS tier: Metaknight
S tier: Marth, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Olimar
A tier: Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
High Mid:
B tier: Lucario, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Fox, King Dedede
C tier: Mr. Game & Watch, Peach, Donkey Kong, ROB
Low Mid:
D tier: Ness, Ike, Sonic, Kirby
E tier: Sheik, Pokemon Trainer, Mario, Lucas, Luigi, Yoshi
Low tier:
F tier: Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Zelda
G tier: Link, Ganondorf, Samus.
Kinda brief explanation about some changes:
I assume the characters in each letter to be about the same level.
SS: In the Apex ruleset MK is just a beast. Halberd/Delfino/Frigate are just too good for MK and he can always counterpick to one of them, Hell he can even counterpick to two of them in Best of 5 sets. He gets some boosts in these stages that no other character can get when counterpicking so thats why I feel he's way stronger than the rest of top tiers. I'd like to see more conservative rulesets tourneys to see MK play without such stages that kinda guarantee his win when he's counterpicking.
S tier: Super solid characters with barely/no counters. I've always believed that Marth belonged here and finally results are starting to show. I'd say he's just as good as Climbers and Diddy. Match-up wise he has a better spread than almost anyone but MK, he just needs a super precise play, but Marth players have achieved that consistency now and it's being proved on results.
A tier: Similar characters to those in S tier. They are totally viable but have some thougher match-ups. I'm a bit at a loss as how good Pikachu can be, for now I'll leave him there but I'm thinking about putting him above Falco.
B tier: Pretty hard to tell. This group of characters is imo the hardest one to rate. Dropped D3 quite a bit because his match-up spread vs top tiers is just terrible. Doesn't matter how many +3 or +4 he has, he just sucks vs what's important. He still has some favorable match-ups among the top tiers so thats why he's staying B tier. Fox loses badly vs Pika, climbers and sheik, but well, so does Falco (except vs Sheik, but its not like losing vs sheik is such a big deal) so I don't think having a couple of terrible match-ups should drop Fox so much. The rest of his match-ups are all even or in his favour. Pit l think he can do fairly well vs the top tiers and he's been getting some good wins in Europe lately but I still need to see more and I'm not so sure about how he deals with MK.
C tier: G&W is similar to D3. He also has some super hard match-ups like MK, Marth or Diddy while others like pit have a more balanced match-up spread so I decided to put him below them. Donkey Kong is a weird one. Results wise he's able to compete with most of B tier but he has quite some bad (horrible) match-ups. For now im leaving him here just above Peach but I could see him raising more. I'm not so sure about ROB either. There's some valid points where he beats Climbers but his match-up vs MK is terrible, he also loses hard to D3 and ZSS and just goes about even with the rest. In paper he's still better than Peach and DK though and some of the ROB players from Japan made me realize how good the character can be. Finally Peach seems to do not so bad vs most characters but she never has the upper hand either so she's always in a losing match-up. She also suffers quite a bit vs MK and to some extend Marth and Snake so I'll put her out of B tier.
D tier: Raised Ness hard and dropped Kirby quite a bit. Ness is getting strong placements from Shaky and also Fow used to get them as well. They are outliers of course but that's already a lot more than the rest of the roster has. Match-ups aren't as bad either. Kirby on the other hand just seems weak. He has no presence at all, even the top Kirby player Chu Dat has trouble placing and with the evolution of campy metagame Kirby just has no way to approach.
E tier: These characters have some big flaws but I still think they are at least quite competent picks compared to the low tiers. Most of this is just theorycraft since there are barely results for these characters. I raised Mario quite a bit since he seems pretty balanced outside of recovery issues. Actually not that bad vs top tiers not named MK. Can trade and space well and has decent punishes. On the other hand Luigi has no real approach and is a gimmick based character. His moves are good but there's just no absolute way he can approach and his recovery is really overrated. I just feel Mario to be a safer version of Luigi, while the last has a lot more risk and reward involved and in this game something risky is usually something bad.
F tier: Bad characters.
G tier: more bad characters showing some very questionable character designs.
El orden de los personajes dentro de una tier es muy orientativo. Cosas como Marth>Climbers o Wolf>Pit me parecen super subjetivas. Además en el caso de la B y la C tier solo las he diferenciado un poco para hacer espacio, los saltos de tier no se tienen en cuenta para la votación pero creo que los personajes de B y C están casi al mismo nivel.
Lo más importante así en general: No puedo decir los votos de otros miembros de la BBR ni nada parecido pero os haré un par de spoilers pequeñitos.
-Marth top 5 casi constante, ha dejado el grupo de Snake/Falco/Pika y ha entrado de lleno con Diddy/ICs/Olimar. De hecho Olimar tiene papeles de ponerse el quinto.
-Caída de Wario. ZSS lo adelantará seguro para unirse a Snake y demás. En ciertos casos ZSS es considerada mejor que Snake y Falco y a veces hasta mejor que algunos personajes del top 5. Tal y como van las cosas al menos Wario quedará por debajo seguro.
Top tier:
SS tier: Metaknight
S tier: Marth, Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, Olimar
A tier: Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Zero Suit Samus, Wario
High Mid:
B tier: Lucario, Toon Link, Wolf, Pit, Fox, King Dedede
C tier: Mr. Game & Watch, Peach, Donkey Kong, ROB
Low Mid:
D tier: Ness, Ike, Sonic, Kirby
E tier: Sheik, Pokemon Trainer, Mario, Lucas, Luigi, Yoshi
Low tier:
F tier: Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Bowser, Zelda
G tier: Link, Ganondorf, Samus.
Kinda brief explanation about some changes:
I assume the characters in each letter to be about the same level.
SS: In the Apex ruleset MK is just a beast. Halberd/Delfino/Frigate are just too good for MK and he can always counterpick to one of them, Hell he can even counterpick to two of them in Best of 5 sets. He gets some boosts in these stages that no other character can get when counterpicking so thats why I feel he's way stronger than the rest of top tiers. I'd like to see more conservative rulesets tourneys to see MK play without such stages that kinda guarantee his win when he's counterpicking.
S tier: Super solid characters with barely/no counters. I've always believed that Marth belonged here and finally results are starting to show. I'd say he's just as good as Climbers and Diddy. Match-up wise he has a better spread than almost anyone but MK, he just needs a super precise play, but Marth players have achieved that consistency now and it's being proved on results.
A tier: Similar characters to those in S tier. They are totally viable but have some thougher match-ups. I'm a bit at a loss as how good Pikachu can be, for now I'll leave him there but I'm thinking about putting him above Falco.
B tier: Pretty hard to tell. This group of characters is imo the hardest one to rate. Dropped D3 quite a bit because his match-up spread vs top tiers is just terrible. Doesn't matter how many +3 or +4 he has, he just sucks vs what's important. He still has some favorable match-ups among the top tiers so thats why he's staying B tier. Fox loses badly vs Pika, climbers and sheik, but well, so does Falco (except vs Sheik, but its not like losing vs sheik is such a big deal) so I don't think having a couple of terrible match-ups should drop Fox so much. The rest of his match-ups are all even or in his favour. Pit l think he can do fairly well vs the top tiers and he's been getting some good wins in Europe lately but I still need to see more and I'm not so sure about how he deals with MK.
C tier: G&W is similar to D3. He also has some super hard match-ups like MK, Marth or Diddy while others like pit have a more balanced match-up spread so I decided to put him below them. Donkey Kong is a weird one. Results wise he's able to compete with most of B tier but he has quite some bad (horrible) match-ups. For now im leaving him here just above Peach but I could see him raising more. I'm not so sure about ROB either. There's some valid points where he beats Climbers but his match-up vs MK is terrible, he also loses hard to D3 and ZSS and just goes about even with the rest. In paper he's still better than Peach and DK though and some of the ROB players from Japan made me realize how good the character can be. Finally Peach seems to do not so bad vs most characters but she never has the upper hand either so she's always in a losing match-up. She also suffers quite a bit vs MK and to some extend Marth and Snake so I'll put her out of B tier.
D tier: Raised Ness hard and dropped Kirby quite a bit. Ness is getting strong placements from Shaky and also Fow used to get them as well. They are outliers of course but that's already a lot more than the rest of the roster has. Match-ups aren't as bad either. Kirby on the other hand just seems weak. He has no presence at all, even the top Kirby player Chu Dat has trouble placing and with the evolution of campy metagame Kirby just has no way to approach.
E tier: These characters have some big flaws but I still think they are at least quite competent picks compared to the low tiers. Most of this is just theorycraft since there are barely results for these characters. I raised Mario quite a bit since he seems pretty balanced outside of recovery issues. Actually not that bad vs top tiers not named MK. Can trade and space well and has decent punishes. On the other hand Luigi has no real approach and is a gimmick based character. His moves are good but there's just no absolute way he can approach and his recovery is really overrated. I just feel Mario to be a safer version of Luigi, while the last has a lot more risk and reward involved and in this game something risky is usually something bad.
F tier: Bad characters.
G tier: more bad characters showing some very questionable character designs.
El orden de los personajes dentro de una tier es muy orientativo. Cosas como Marth>Climbers o Wolf>Pit me parecen super subjetivas. Además en el caso de la B y la C tier solo las he diferenciado un poco para hacer espacio, los saltos de tier no se tienen en cuenta para la votación pero creo que los personajes de B y C están casi al mismo nivel.
Lo más importante así en general: No puedo decir los votos de otros miembros de la BBR ni nada parecido pero os haré un par de spoilers pequeñitos.
-Marth top 5 casi constante, ha dejado el grupo de Snake/Falco/Pika y ha entrado de lleno con Diddy/ICs/Olimar. De hecho Olimar tiene papeles de ponerse el quinto.
-Caída de Wario. ZSS lo adelantará seguro para unirse a Snake y demás. En ciertos casos ZSS es considerada mejor que Snake y Falco y a veces hasta mejor que algunos personajes del top 5. Tal y como van las cosas al menos Wario quedará por debajo seguro.